I just finished reading this book and since I don't live in Istanbul yet, I would like to know if those of you who live there do notice the collective "melancholy" that he speaks of...or is Pamuk just a depressed person??!! Thanks!

The latter. He also states that Istanbullers see themselves in black and white. Rubbish.

The best moments in that book are the personal ones. I do not think that Pamuk effectively makes cultural generalisations, perhaps for the very reasons why people condemn him (i.e. his elitism).

Nevertheless, Pamuk's power of desciption is (to use an Arikanism) awesome at times.

I actually googled "Arikanism"

He seems a very lonely, bitter man. I notice he disliked almost everyone from an early age, it was most striking in the chapter about elementary school. He considered the other students to be idiots and truly seemed to hate them. He seems to have an emotional detachment from people?

Thanks for answering my question.

Is that the bio of founder of Arikanism or Pamuk?

I found his observations about the hüzün of Istanbul to be very interesting. Especially in the winter when it's dark by 5 o'clock or on a day like yesterday where the whole day is semi-dark because of fog. When you look in the faces of people waiting for the bus or packed in them like sardines all for a monthly wage of 400 YTL, I think you can see it.

Also, he is making an observation about Istanbul from the time of his childhood continuing through today. I have no idea what Istanbul was like in those earlier years so I asked my roommate (born & raised in Istanbul) what her thoughts were. She immediately agreed that she sees Istanbul as a hüzünlü city but it is more prevalent in certain neighborhoods and definitely more in the winter. (''Someone living in Etiler might not feel it.'')

Just a different observation. Thanks for bringing it up, Sadie, because I know others have mentioned getting a book club started - I think it would be a great idea. Throw in skype & a speakerphone and we could even have an international book club.

Last week a man in the Cedar Rapids (IOWA - nothing to do since 1772! ) airport struck up a conversation when he saw what I was reading. Turns out he's from Istanbul and said he would never go back, he is a professor at Iowa State University. He told me his mother argues with him, "But Istanbul has such rich history, how can you live in America. Come back." and he replies, "It was the past, what about the present?" He was about Pamuk's age. Perhaps the "huzun" pushed him away from Istanbul?

I hope a book club is started by the time I get there, I'd love it!

I am not sure how much of a collective hüzün Pamuk would have been able to observe from Nisintasi. Also if it is only observable in certain parts of the city and in certain seasons how much is it a hüzün spread like a dark cloud over whole of Istanbul as Pamuk somewhat wistfully imagines.

I need more evidence of this mass melancholia than wintry weather and the faces of people packed into a bus. I see energy, vibrancy and life in Istanbul: in the diligent hopefulness of the fisherman along the Bosphorous, in proudly squealing children, in the honk of taxis playing tinny arabesque music, in the kids pogoing along to rock music last night, in the greetings of my colleagues, and in the eyes of my girlfriend. In Istanbullers I see warmth and hope, not melancholia and dissonance.

Plus, Sadie I think that your man was unusual. Many Istanbullers who have left Istanbul always feel that they will eventually come back. It has a pull, like a tide.

It would be interesting to know what other people on the forum think. We are all observers as Burbaco points out.

Just take the bus during winter you will see it.

It is easy to like and love Istanbul with a decent job and dito income, but I somehow doubt if the millions of hopefulls on an income of 400YTL share the same love for this incredible town.
Struggle for survival by millions on one hand and enjoying all luxuries for a handfull of lucky ones is what I see.

It is the millions struggling who give this city its vibrancy and it is their suffering what brings about the dark cloud Pamuk was seeing, even form his Nisantasi viewing point.

but couldn't that be the famous patronising liberal bleeding heart -"look at how unhappy the poor people are". Isn't that a myth, as in fact the real lost, disconnected and melancholic souls are to be found staring purposelessly across at one another in Reina.

I accept that millions of people in this city have to struggle, but this struggle gives heat and vibrancy not a dark cloud of melancholia. This observation from Pamuk, I would argue, is an observation of a romantic poet, an observation based on a sense, but not an observation that is based on fact.

However, it will be interesting to see what other people think.

In my experience, it's never interesting to see what other people think.

[quote user="Arikan" post="72215"]In my experience, it's never interesting to see what other people think.[/quote]


I suppose that comment is meant to prove your point, Ali.

However, it is interesting to know that you purport that it is not interesting to see what other people think despite regularly posting on a forum which is based on other people's opinions (as well as yours). If that's awfully boring for you then you have a very strange masochistic streak by which you punish yourself by interacting with other human beings.

You see, that, too, wasn't interesting. Anyway, no time to wallow in that mire...

[quote user="jc" post="72214"]but couldn't that be the famous patronising liberal bleeding heart -"look at how unhappy the poor people are". Isn't that a myth, as in fact the real lost, disconnected and melancholic souls are to be found staring purposelessly across at one another in Reina.

I accept that millions of people in this city have to struggle, but this struggle gives heat and vibrancy not a dark cloud of melancholia. This observation from Pamuk, I would argue, is an observation of a romantic poet, an observation based on a sense, but not an observation that is based on fact.

However, it will be interesting to see what other people think.[/quote]

Being bored and disconnected in a place like Reina is the price for an excess of luxury that the millions fighting for daily survival would gladly pay in order to be able to comfortably feed and educate their children.

Istanbul is a pretty amazing town, but don't tell me the vibrancy comes from people who are happy to be poor and would choose to remain poor in order to keep Istanbul buzzing.

I know mine will be equally dull for some, but I'd like to say it:

Istanbul is known as the city with golden earth. People used to come here to find jobs, wealth, and prosperity. They immigrated from east where the living conditons are much worse. (Poverty is not Istanbul's fault, it is the country's problem) For most, having a job of 400 YTL is a good thing and they live in better conditions then they would in their hometowns. Also they have the option to go back if they had a better chance back there. Do I not care for them? I do. More than most of you here, because I have to go to Eminonu every day, and I remember the poor everyday, more than most of you... I see people begging for money on the streets, most of them crippled. But again, when I saw the very old granny on telly, who was arrested by the police and found to be carrying 7000 YTL, which is quite a good money, I decided not to be sorry about those beggars any more

Still, huzun "melancholy" is something different from wealth gap and what that causes. Most of the people here, with low income, are proud to be living in Istanbul. Trust me. I think, wealth gaps exist all around the world and early dark winter mornings arent very lively in anywhere... But as the day starts, and Istanbul wakes up, it is a complete different story.