Welcome Ulas.

Very interesting. Does that mean that there is someone paying someone to work on sustainable, urban transport? Excellent. Lot's to do. What do you reckon: 10years, 5.000.000.000$US enough to really make a difference?

[quote user="AlSF" post="64671"]Welcome. Interesting indeed. Um, I don't use the MUNI here in San Francisco (they run with electricity so there are cables suspended in certain parts of the city on certain routes) but I am considering buying a Prius... could be too small for my needs. Now, if I may be bold enough to ask: Would you please recommend an SUV model with sustainable fuel? I load ski and snowboarding stuff (you should see my winter clothes ) in the winter so I need a good-sized vehicle but I want to help the environment.[/quote]

There are no environmentally friendly SUV's, they all use too much fuel to be "green" vehicles. It would be better to buy an estate car that runs on LPG.

In a Sustainable Urban Transport System, individually owned cars would play a minor or no role. The system would be that good and affordable, that the car would become more a toy than a serious means of transport.

That is not to say that we all have to hand in our cars. As the system is not existing, allthough more so in some places, less so here, our excuse is that we need the car.

To illustrate this you need to look at the use of the high speed train systems for example in France or Germany and for comfort reasons I would not want to drive instead. Only they are too expensive so that business people afford them and for private trips people shy away from them.

People think that there are too many cars in Istanbul, causing huge hold ups everywhere. This is not true. There are many good arterial routes to move about the city and although there are parking problems, as in any major city, the volume of traffic is not really yet of concern. What causes the massive traffic jams are bad drivers, of which there are plenty. People leaving lane changes to the last minute, people queuing in more than one lane when leaving main roads, people not bothering with lane procedure, people jumping traffic lights, people cutting in front of others, people parking in stupid places; these are all contributors to the causes of traffic congestion. A good start with any form of transport planning would be a huge drivers education programme, running alongside a genuine attempt to police the roads honestly and sensibly.

Yes david, I back u up 100%. As the level of education among the people varies so much also they behaviour in traffic does as the traffic education is close to nill.

Traffic behavior is a factor, but the key factor is that there are too many cars for the exisiting roadspace.
And you simply cannot build enough roads to provide for cars. "You can't build build your way out of congestion."

Also, parking is a major issue. On some streets up to 50% of the road space is taken up by parked vehicles.

The focus has to be on providing clean, quality mass transit. One of the best examples is going from Bostanci to Taksim. You can take the seabus to Kabatas; trasfer to the funicular to Taksim; and from there transfer to metro, or wherever you are going. We need more options like this for travelling in the city.

Welcome, Ulas!
this introduction has turned into an interesting discussion - and the topic is one i think about often

i love public transport and it's one of the reasons i choose to live outside of the US, in places where having a car isn't absolutely necessary

the japanese have such a small amount of land and such a large number of people & cars but i've never experienced terrible traffic or any major parking difficulties there, even in the kansai region

parking garages are plentiful in the cities and no more of an eyesore than any other big concrete building; you can't even register a car without showing proof that you have a dedicated parking space for that car (usually in your apartment parking garage\lot or in a neighborhood lot) - fees vary for parking; i paid 10$\month in the village but my friend paid 100$\month in the city (makes you think twice before buying a car!!)

i always wonder why there aren't more parking garages here in istanbul

about the bostanci-taksim route -- sounds convenient, but is it possible even in the late hours? i'll have to try that one

I think I would have to argue about too many cars being being the primary cause of congestion, I would always point to driving behaviour here being the biggest problem, except maybe when crossing either of the bridges. Thier doesn't seem to be any sense of social thinking or guilt of their behaviour when it comes to getting in a car, everyone is intent on their own journey, at the expense of everyone else. I came in early today, to avoid the "first day of school" trauma. Even so, with almost no traffic to deal with their were still people who jumped small queues, forcing their way into a lane as late as possible, with no regard for other drivers. It is examples like this that prove to me that education and stiff penalties, enforced evenly and across the board, would be of huge benefit.

Starfish, the Japanese have a very interesting society. I think it is precisely because the Japanese have limited land space that they are very careful in how they use it. For example, they found that household appliances were taking up too much space in land fills so they implemented the following law: to dispose of your washing machine, etc. you have to bring it to a recycling center where it will be dismantled and recycled. Oh, and you have to pay $40 for the service. I digress, but I think it is important to understand the culture, the mindset. Try to implement that law elsewhere and roadsides would be litered with old fridges, etc.

"you can't even register a car without showing proof that you have a dedicated parking space.." This would be a wonderful restriction to implement here, but the problem is implementation. Just look at the streets in Istanbul that have been identified as #1 disaster evacuation routes where it is forbidden to park. Guess what... parking on both sides.


David, I agree that driver behavior is a problem. But even good driving doesn't help after you have reached a certain volume of vehicles on the roadways. I guess we can't attach photos or files which is too bad because I have 2 photos that makes this point very clear... It is a photo of a bus and one busload of passengers. The second photo shows the number of cars that is necessary to carry the same number of people. The bus takes up 20 meters, the private vehicles take up a full city block.

Jonathan, I don't know if yuo are still following this thread, but I have the impression that you are involved in sustainable development or transport. Am i correct?

By the way, ch gets the prize for the most succinct description of sustainable transport... Cheers,

P.S. Ulash, in Turkish, means to reach, get to, arrive and is the root of ulashtirma which is transportation.

I don't know if it is so much that the roads are bad, but there certainly not enough connections between Europe and Asia - two bridges is about 1/3 or hat they need - Manhattan has 11 major bridges/tunnels as access points.

As far as the drivers - I agree with everything said here. No one knows how to MERGE - they all rush the queues. Especially the men - my wife calls it "turkish male syndrom - I am a MAN, therefore I must be first".

The worse drivers I have seen ANYWHERE, and I used to live in New Orleans, where 35% of the drivers are legally intoxicated every weekend.

Guys, trust me I have seen worse drivers in czech repucblic or bulgaria..

Here the problem is people do not respect each other.. Parking on a right or a left lane is one of the main causes of traffic. Yet , i can not totaly blame the drivers as there is not enough parking anywhere...

The solution is more metro lines, more trams, more trains and more ferries.. + thougher license issues for new drivers. Also a US style traffic ticketing system would create miracles..

By the way, I just checked the sea bus schedule and I am happy to say that they have increased the frequency of the service at least between Bostanci and Kabatas. And they have added a really nice route from Karakoy to Istinye which makes it possible to go up the Bogaz and avoid the road based traffic jams.

Even those with 'higher education' (sans driver ed) deliberately park their luxe vehicles in the middle of the road just to show off their rides...
I do agree with David. Education as well as common courtesy is fundamental.

I remember having lived in Hong Kong island for several years and never really experiencing a huge traffic jam even with constant construction going on with the buildings around the financial district. Within those few years, more ferry routes were added, MTR (mass transit railway) trains and stations were linked and train network was extended. It just made sense in preparation for the influx of visitors and workers from China and all over. Also a second commuter tunnel was built to ease the congestion from the one existing tunnel in Central from Hong Kong island to Kowloon and vice versa. A pedestrian escalator in Central Hong Kong was also erected. Police were visible and road signs were strictly enforced. There were no major congestions despite the somewhat narrow streets on the island's main business/shopping are due to disciplined driver conduct I believe. Taxi drivers used their knowledge of short cuts instead of cutting in and forcing bottlenecks. Those in private vechicles also adhered to the rules since fines were quite hefty.

Do the taxi drivers in Tokyo still wear gloves?

Oh I forgot to mention that in Hong Kong island, each major residential complex ran a regular private mini-bus service with stops to the metro, ferry terminal , central taxi stand and a big shopping center so that residents need not drive to and from those places during the week. It resulted in lesser cars on the road for sure. I certainly relied on my complex's bus a lot to and from work and only used the car on certain days and weekends + trips to the grocery. I don't know if a similar thing would be viable in each site in Istanbul but it worked in Hong Kong island.

Ulas,

I was a bit busy in the last few days.

I am not directly involved with Sustainable Transport, but I am a Civil engineer, I come from Germany with leening a bit towards greenish ideas. And the company I work for prides itself for it's sustainability concious work.