But that's just your opinion...

And your opinion is?

My opinion, Niels Bohr, is that you posted an interesting interview with a historian who speaks a certain type of professional jargon. I agree that the truth about minorities under the Ottoman empire depends on the time and the place and the people under discussion. Astounding. In this sense both you and CTM may have valid cases.

It's also my opinion that you're a bit frustrated that burbaco didn't stumble into your rhetorical trap. It's my suspicion I may be doing it instead.

Furthermore, I drunkenly opine that saying "objectivity is subjective" is an empty and singularly unhelpful thing.

I'm also of the opinion that Istanbul is cool and that Fransiz Sokak isn't and that the reason for the difference has something to do with objective truth.

If we follow your logic oriental romanticists are scum bags then (especially after having an episode of my fave sitcom jolly tards play on a certain headscarf poll results.)

being a Turk of a family that immigrated from bulgaria in the 1950's, I would advise the bulgarians to shut the fcuk up......and I think the reason is obvious....

and what is up with this pitiful pretendance to be a stickler for historical truths? look at the histories of any major power before you talk about repression under the ottoman empire....

Not entirely sure why I'm doing this...

DIA, you may be right about oriental romanticists but you'd have to unpack your thinking a bit more for me to say for sure.

You're also right that the headscarf thread hasn't been as coherent as it might but I didn't really get your point.

CD, you too are entirely right. Firstly, yes, it's much better for everyone to silently nurse their historical grievances, particularly in the Balkans. That way we can ensure those grudges are not challenged and not repeated.

And secondly, you're also right that that the abuses carried out by other major empires simply haven't been studied enough, while Ottoman minorities studies gets far too much attention and funding. I suspect this is because of the global plot to undermine Turkey. On a forum about life in this country we should definitely clear all the rest of the planet's history out of the way before addressing the place where we live.

also, cocks.

I suppose constantly holding on to historical grudges is a good solution.......point that I was trying to make was that compared to other empires, religious minorities under the Ottoman Empire were well off.....hell, they were not persecuted for their religion or forced to change it, were they? they had their own legal system........it's stupid to see posts like,''well, we say the minorities under the Ottoman Empire had a good situation but did they really because they were made to feel like they were inferior....'' even if that were true, which DIA makes some excellent points that it wasn't, is it really a big deal? does that mean that they were repressed? or can you think of an empire at that time that minorities didn't feel that way?

anyway, spine, that was the point I was trying to make, but it went straight over your head, didn't it?

Yes it did. And I can't think why, since when I re-read your earlier post I can see all those points shining through.

Allright sarcasmo,

Apparently my lengthy posts from the past answering your questions have been deleted. I am planning a trip to visit family next week in Ankara, I shall school you over a couple of beers if you are willing. Leave your commonwealth (British Empire) political correctness and your - look at me I am so hillarious - humour at home unless you are willing to take in as much as you dish out darlin ( translation; no crying or storming out.) Canada taught me a tad bit about Commonwealthers, you've been in Turkey for sometime so I am hoping you ventured out of your expat bubble every now and then to learn to tell things as is and grow a thicker skin.

I've had more enticing invitations for beer, but I'd love to meet up. I'll be out of town at the start of the week but back by Thursday. I promise neither to cry nor storm out. In fact, you may be surprised at my opinions. Canada, eh? You increasingly remind me of my friend Gurcan. Which is good.

PM me when you're here. Or post a meeting, because there are other commonwealthers who might like some old-school learnin.

Deal.

P.S: Seggiest scares me.

Cool, Istanbul, this is sorted out.

Something to chew on in case we meet, my lover of lame graphic novels (or adaptations) friend,


"Apart from those rebels killed in the field, 20 were hanged, 44 blown away from guns, and 459 shot by musketery."



P.S: I paraphrased it a bit cause I didn't want to type the entire paragraph.

P.P.S: And no this is not a Wahhabi mullah's accounts of the events.

What is that? Amritsar, Mau-Mau, or another British atrocity?

Thanks for posting the chewing material because it helps me see your script for our meeting. For the entertainment of EiT, the Ankara players humbly present…

Dis-illusioning Spine

(A one-act play)

Curtain opens. Spine is sitting in a bar, arguing loudly in English with the waiter over the ratio of “good” nuts to “bad” nuts in the nut bowl.

Enter DAI

DAI: You Spine?

Spine: Yes. (Looks up) Wow, you’re taller than I expected. But I still think you need to confront the reality of Ottoman treatment of brave, freedom-hungry Bulgarian peasants.

DAI: Oh really? What about British massacres in India, eh?

Spine: I think you’ll find those were exceptional events. The British Empire was actually a pragmatic and liberal construction.

DAI: Yeah? Well what about [crime against humanity X]? Was that isolated too?

Spine: (shifting in seat) Well….But the British Empire left behind a legacy of democracy and democratic institutions when it disengaged smoothly from its colonies in the 1950s and 1960s.

DAI: So say you. What about Kenya? What about Africa? Where are your democratic institutions there? And where was the smooth disengagement on the sub-continent? Eh? Answer that!

(Spine is clearly uncomfortable. He’s looking at the door.)

DAI: And what about [atrocity Y]? Where were your minority rights there, colonialist? Look me in the eyes!

Spine: (Teary) You’re right. I was going to discuss Armenians, the psychic scars of the Balkan Wars, the complexities of Ottoman Istanbul, Leventine trade, Kurds, the wealth tax, Izmir and Hrant Dink. (Trembles) But I see now my own history robs me of any moral authority. I’m a sham!

(Spine flees the bar, crying)

(DAI smiles, orders a beer and pulls out his mobile)

DAI: Californiadreamin? It’s me. Mission accomplished. That’s another know-it-all who won’t be so perky online now.

(Curtain closes)

JF